Feb 22
|
I was listening to Ray Bentley's sermon when I was driving on 60 for our ATCMO（美國中醫師樂團） music rehearsal for this Saturday's performance in Temple City. There was a smile in my heart when I heard him discuss God's predestination. Was not that we just talked over this afternoon? I almost wanted to jump (but, I should not because I was driving) when I heard him uttering words 'God's sovereignty' and 'our responsibility'. Wow, that was incredible! This afternoon you said ‘上帝的主權‘ and ’我們的責任‘ when you were trying to explain God's predestination versus our freedom. I mocked you by commenting that you were an academic!!! So, what am I arriving at? This is God's predestination. He knew we would discuss God's predestination after I served my signature 'Sean's California Roll' and Ethiopian organic coffee. He also knew in advance that I would hear the same issue on the air.
Last night and this morning I have heard above recording 3 - 4 times, but, I did not hear at all the word ''God's sovereignty' and 'our responsibility'. The only plausible answer to the mystery is I have heard God's voice and this would be my first experience. It is still hard for me to believe all this had happened. Please listen to above recording and let me know what you think.
- copy the relevant verse as follows:
Ephesians 1:5
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
New Living Translation (©2007)
God decided in advance to adopt us into his own family by bringing us to himself through Jesus Christ. This is what he wanted to do, and it gave him great pleasure.
English Standard Version (©2001)
He predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
Luke Hungming Luo
Calvary Chapel is famous for its anti-Calvinist's predestination (the so called TULIP) teaching.
So
if you heard sovereign of God (predestination) and human responsibility
at the same time, which is the core of Calvinism predestination
teaching, would be a surprise for me.
Shean
But, he was preaching on God's predestining. How could that be anti-Calvinist?
Luke Hungming Luo
Our works are God's mask, behind which [God] remains hidden, although [God] does all things." -- M. Luther
They oppose TULIP, especially the L in the TULIP, which is Limited Atonement. It means Christ only died for the elects, not every member of the human kind.
Chun-yen
Sean,
I did not get a chance to listen to the radio yet. But have thought about this topic a lot. May I share some thoughts here with you on predestination?
We are predestined or elected only In Christ. We have eternal life because of what Christ did on the cross and because of His resurrection. So IN CHRIST we were chosen to be adopted to be God's children. Outside of Christ we have no merit to be elected at all!!
As for the human responsibility aspect, that is our response to God's revealed grace. But even faith is a gift from God. This is a deep subject. It does not mean we should be passive at all. Satan loves to keep us passive toward God by blinding our eyes and dulling our spirit's senses. God's Spirit can quicken our spirit so we can hear His voice (so to speak, through His Word) and trust Him. He leads us day to day in a dynamic manner by His dynamic power. It's not inactive or vague. It's clear and specific. He leads us on a path of LIFE, away from death and hell.
I highly recommend the books by Oswald Chambers: Biblical Psychology, and other titles. He sheds a lot of light on this topic, and his life reflected a life of spiritual power and purity. You can get a nice Collection of the complete Works of Oswald Chambers in one volume for under $30 on Amzon. More than worth your investment.
The wisdom we gain will be of eternal value for sure.
Shean
FYI
https://plus.google.com/
Pediatric Doctor 駱鴻銘
Studying theology in Westminster Seminary, Escondido, CA
http://wscal.edu/about-wsc/
Working on English-Chinese translation for a Taiwan biblical publishing company.
Whosoever believes in Jesus shall NOT PERISH, but HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE!!
We can not do split-hair analysis of theology, which can lead to a distorted view and understanding of GOD. If anyone thinks he/she deserves special favor from God to be saved by Jesus, he/she is extremely proud. We have all fallen short of God's glory, and we are all in need of forgiveness and redemption. Only the incorruptible blood of Jesus can redeem us and puts us in at-one-ment (atonement) with God.
thanks for initiating this critical topic. Let this discussion continue if needed. Too many are misled by wrong teachings.
Luke Hungming Luo
I don't know whether I should jump into the discussion of your group and I wonder do I have time to do this. Maybe I can share my view in your group sometimes.
But I have to say this once here:
If
Christ died for EVERYONE, then EVERYONE will be saved. Period unless
you deny that the death of Christ has no ability to actually saves
people.
But we all agree that not everyone is saved. (hope that it is the case in the people of this group).
Even in the verse she quoted, there is a qualifying clause says "Whosoever believes".
So we know only those who believes will be saved.
And she
already admit that our faith is God's gift, no of our own ability or
invention or inherent, since we are dead in trespasses.
So we are left with one choice, Christ only died for those who believes.
And since faith is the gift from God, then Christ must only die for God's elects (those who endowed with faith from God).
That is the L in the TULIP.
and btw, that is the traditional Precambrian
Shean
I can see where Dr. Luo is coming from. We kind of discussed (argued, maybe) over this in our Bible study sessions. This can be an endless 'argument' or 'discussion', so I feel obliged to share Dr. Luo's view with everyone.
Shean
Sorry, there are some typos here and there. I really don't know how Presbyterian becomes "Precambrian". - Luke Hungming Luo
I want to add that
if we all try to get the fact straight (chance is we will never), we will all become theologian. I think it is more important that we are SAVED than anything else.
Chun-yen Stillman
Thank you, Dr. Luo, for your input. I appreciate your effort to serve God.
I am not trying to engage in a theological debate, as important as it is. The goal is not to win an argument, but to leave room for questions and further understanding.
God did not choose to endow some people with faith, and leave others out. It's not how this 'gift' thing works.
But words can fail us when we try to express WHO God is and HOW He works. And we can all agree that our finite minds can not comprehend or explain the infinite God with all His mystery and mercy and grace and love that overpowers the work of sin and Satan in human souls as well as in the world.
Do not intend to engage in vain talks myself either. I still highly recommend the book by David McCasland: Oswald Chambers- Abandoned to God, and books by O.C. himself. The life of O. Chambers shows what a truly saved life looks like and how it functions, and what it conveys. Not perfection, but a dynamic vital life empowered by His living Spirit. It will inspire seekers to know Christ where words fail to portray God.
Stanley
Allow me to share my thought in additon to God's sovereignty and our
responsibity.
To me, predetermination is a clear teaching of Bible. God transcends
over time and space. In other word, God created space (宇) and time
(宙)，and put mankind in the containers of space and time (宇宙). In John
1:1太初有道，this 太初means the very beginning, way before He created 宇宙.
Since He is above time, He is not limited by the time He created. In
many places of the Bible, present tense is used when God trrevealed
Himself, such as "I am who I am", or "I am the God of thy father, the
God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." Indeed there
are places in the Bible tense is used. But it is for us, human in
history process, to have easier understanding.
Anything in the containers of time and space is relative. In space,
there are right, left, front, back, above and below. In time, there
are today, yesterday and tomorrow. So the created human being lives
in relative, temporal, limited, and polluted (after the fall of Adam)
world. Human being is created with God's image. Thus we have the
senses of holiness, goodness, and justice like God. But the ultimate
holiness, goodness, justice, truth, reason and wisdom are God Himself.
上帝是聖潔，良善，公義，真理， 理性 與智慧的本體 (subjectivity) 與源頭 (source). Chinese often
say "這個孩子不像樣"。 Whose 樣 we are taking about? his father? 孔子（至聖先師）? 老子？
I don't think so. No one is good enough to say that others should
follow his 樣. The ultimate 樣 is God Himself since we are made with
God's image. Some Chinese expressions do reflect Bibiblical truth in
them. Only God is absolute. If you know all these, you will feel so
lucky that you are a chosen one because you have the previlige to
access this 本體與源頭 . You can talk and pray to Him, and have chance to
get HIs wisdom and power.
With this understanding, I hope that it is easier for you to
understand and accept predetermination. Predetermination is one of
the basic principles of the Reformed Theology (by John Calvin).
Chun-yen
Hello, Stanley,
Thank you for sharing these excellent points about time and space and humans in that context. I agree with your points.
Just
wish to add that God our Creator and Savior predetermined to make us
His friends in the Garden of Eden. Did God preset Adam and Eve to go on a
path of destruction in that garden? I doubt it. But He certainly
predetermined to redeem the fallen human beings with a plan to send His
Son to the Cross and resurrect Him.
But
He did not pre-determine to exclude some people from eternal life,
although He fore-knew their rejection of Jesus because He is the Alpha and the Omega.
There
is interaction between God's plan and human will all the time,
including those who have trusted in Him. How do we interpret all this?
I do not know. But the word "predetermination' simply can not
accurately describe God's heart, intentions, and wisdom in His salvation
plan which was/is offered to all mankind without prejudice. Not
everyone accepts this free gift though.
Calvin
contributed a lot to theology. But we get into hyper-Calvinism when we
push the idea too far. God did not design us to be passive robots- we
are indeed made in His/their image (God, Son, Holy Spirit). This
respect for us is way beyond our ability to imagine. We are more than
chess pieces in a game plan. We are His children. He calls us His
friends.
Was Jesus' incorruptible blood sufficient to save the entire world of sinners? YES.
Did everyone put his trust in Him - the Son of God? NO. God gave us free will.
Did God ever take time to carry on a debate or discussion with a human being? YES. Just read the Book of Job.
Will this discussion do some good in His eyes? PERHAPS....
Thanks again to everyone who read this.
Shean
This is like 'pot luck'. Every one brings forth his best dish. Tonight
I am going to see Virgil Bauman at the ping-pong place. I will make
him say something. He is the theology professor. Even so, I don't
expect him to solve our puzzle. We became such joyful practicing
partner that I am confident my statement will not harm our friendship,
haha!
Luke Hungming Luo
Feb 23
Let me give my 2 cents or my dish to the pot luck.
(http://www.amazon.com/Place-
One of the essay in the bool is the introduction to John
Owen's book, "the death of death in the death of Christ". (see the
reviews here: http://www.amazon.com/Death-
and let me quote one paragraph of one review:
Owen's thesis, that Christ did, in fact, save His people from their sins
(Matt. 1:21), is nothing less than pure, undiluted Gospel-truth, and
shall remain so as long as God Himself is Truth.
There is no work written by any Calvinist throughout the ages that can
begin to compare with Owen's treatment of the death of Christ, and His
procurement of eternal redemption thereby. And there is no work written
by any Arminian throughout the ages that can begin to answer Owen's
book. To do this, it would be necessary to show that the Scriptures
present Christ's death as obtaining a mere possibility of redemption,
instead of having actually obtained eternal redemption (Heb. 9:12), an
absolute impossibility.
If we missed the nature of Christ's death, we'll
depreciate the glory of God and Christ and will bring unfortunate
consequences on our ministry. So this is not a easy issue that we can
escape.
I like the serious discussions conducted here. It shows how serious we are to our belief.
May the Lord bless our sharpening with each other.
Chun-yen
Hi, Good Morning Everyone,
All your input and reference links are appreciated. Like Dr. Luo says, we are serious and we care about the meaning of the cross and Jesus' death - which is also the focus of the season. It's better that we study, pray, and seek God's help in such understanding (no matter how incomplete it may be) than being too casual about it. And yes, it will have its impact on evangelism/other ministry in some way.
When I have more time, I will look into the radio program and the other essays/writings as suggested by you all. It's good for me to remain humble in all the things God wants me to learn from Him. Currently I am just so inspired by the teaching/and the life of Oswald Chambers who obviously had such a close friendship with his God, the Lord Jesus, that he was able to move any time anywhere at His bidding. And he worked tirelessly with godly enthusiasm to reach the lost. That speaks volume about how deep the redemption worked in his own soul and life.
Below I am also attaching some short comments by a pastor I respect (Fred Hsu in NJ):
All your input and reference links are appreciated. Like Dr. Luo says, we are serious and we care about the meaning of the cross and Jesus' death - which is also the focus of the season. It's better that we study, pray, and seek God's help in such understanding (no matter how incomplete it may be) than being too casual about it. And yes, it will have its impact on evangelism/other ministry in some way.
When I have more time, I will look into the radio program and the other essays/writings as suggested by you all. It's good for me to remain humble in all the things God wants me to learn from Him. Currently I am just so inspired by the teaching/and the life of Oswald Chambers who obviously had such a close friendship with his God, the Lord Jesus, that he was able to move any time anywhere at His bidding. And he worked tirelessly with godly enthusiasm to reach the lost. That speaks volume about how deep the redemption worked in his own soul and life.
Below I am also attaching some short comments by a pastor I respect (Fred Hsu in NJ):
There is no way we can fully understand
this issue, because human logic is limited and it definitely will fail
us to comprehend God. Both Calvinism and Arminianism at most are human
logic, so debating is fun but goes no where (This has been going on for
hundreds of years). God gives us free will, that's where our problem
comes from, but that's also comes our salvation, we have to choose to
accept the Lord, God does not randomly pick some to save and some not.
We are moral beings and are responsible to Him, to self, and to
others... I accepted the Lord by my free will, but looking back I know,
without His revelation and grace there is no way I can believe in Him.
That is a mystery, just be humble and admit that it's beyond me, and
enjoy Him... God's sovereignty and our free will---both and, not either
or--- that's why I am a "Calminian" .
Love,
Fred.Stanley
Feb 25
|
There are different angles you can look at the predetermination .
Firstly, please look at Romans 1:18-22. I copy the Chinese version
below for your convenience.
Rom 1:18 原來，神的忿怒從天上顯明在一切不虔不義的人身上，
Rom 1:19 神的事情，人所能知道的，原顯明在人心裡，
Rom 1:20 自從造天地以來，神的永能和神性是明明可知的，雖是眼不能見，
Rom 1:21 因為，他們雖然知道神，卻不當作神榮耀他，也不感謝他。
Rom 1:22 自稱為聰明，反成了愚拙，
From the general revelation, mankind should know of God's eternal
power and existence. However, many just suppress such knowledge, and
try to act freely at their own will. This is what 阻擋真理 means. As a
result, 他們的思念變為虛妄，無知的心就昏暗了. God's wrath will fall on them. (Rom 1:28
) 他們既然故意不認識神，神就任憑他們存邪僻的心，
foolish things, and their hears made dark. Then, (Mar 4:12)
叫他們看是看見，卻不曉得；聽是聽見，卻不明白；
Bible saying same teaching. I believe that those are the ones not
chosen. Thus, mankind really acts themselves out of God's grace.
You can look at the predetermination from another angle. See Romans
3:10-12 as follows:
Rom 3:10 就如經上所記：沒有義人，連一個也沒有。
Rom 3:11 沒有明白的；沒有尋求神的；
Rom 3:12 都是偏離正路，一同變為無用。沒有行善的，連一個也沒有。
Again, similar teaching can be found in more than one place of Bible.
Because everyone deserves death in the first place as a price of sins,
you cannot say that it is unfair for God to save him, not you. God
要憐憫誰就憐憫誰，要恩待誰就恩待誰。It is up to God, just like the example given by
Jesus that the owner pays same dollar amount to those labors who works
either 8 hours, 5 hours, or 3 hours. Those who works 8 hours cannot
say that the owner is unfair. Who are you? Do you have right to
complain of God's inequity? I think no.
Hope these two reasonings are helpful to you to understand
predetermination even further.
Chun-yen
Thank you for including the Chinese verses. I am familiar with all the verses you quoted in your email. (I just can't type Chinese very smoothly on my computer, so I reply in English. Sorry). And I know I have been born again with the seal of the Holy Spirit.
Perhaps we should set aside such words as "predetermination" and "predestination" for the moment, and just focus on the Cross of Jesus. The glaring truth is: Jesus loved us while we were yet sinners, and died for us to save us! He did not see us as 義人, then decided to die for us. Because 沒有義人，連一個也沒有。
So who did Jesus die for? for 一切不虔不義的人身上，就是那些行不義阻擋真理的人。
It was not limited atonement. It was available for every sinner. Man had his own spirit and his own free will.
When we read Exodus 4:21, we often misunderstand it to mean that God hardened Pharoah's heart, then condemned him for having a hard heart!!
It does not mean that at all. It means that when man's heart turns hard, by God's law, he will be hardened away from God. God did not make it hard. God allowed it to turn hard. God allows man to decide/choose his own destiny by accepting His redemption or rejecting it. So the blood is for all, but the acceptance is not by all.
如經上所記：沒有義人，連一個也沒有。
Rom 3:11 沒有明白的；沒有尋求神的；
Rom 3:12 都是偏離正路，一同變為無用。沒有行善的，連一個也沒有。
Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. God sent Jesus to redeem mankind. All mankind are guilty when judged by His holiness. All of us need His redemption.
Those who trust in Jesus receive the remission of sins. Those who don't, their sins remain.
Yet Jesus died for all, since His salvation is available to all mankind.
If we could just focus on the aspect of the Cross, maybe we don't need to be stuck with the word "predetermination". I'll let God decide what HE means by this word. The part I need to pay attention to is my assignment to share His love and saving power with souls, which is all based on Christ and Him crucified.
I am thankful that you are a believer, too. And thanks again for your sincere sharing with me. Maybe it will take some time before we can meet on this theological point.
Humbly,
Shean
O.K. Here I have my dish for the pot luck and hope all of you still have a little appetite for a little more food.
Some time ago I made a blunt statement about Oriental medicine by saying that all existing Chinese medicine theory just barely explain away the complexity of our body operation. Because not a single set of theory could satisfactorily explain how our body work, one after another set of theory and/or model was cranked out in the Chinese history for use. So, today we have, in the textbook, Yin and Yang, Exterior and Interior, Deficiency and Excess, Cold and Heat (so-called 'Eight Guiding Diagnosis Principles'), Chi, Blood and Fluid theory, Five Element theory, Zhang (Yin organ) and Fu (Yang organ) theory, 3 Jiao (the entire body divided into 3 sections/jiaos, upper, middle and lower) theory and finally the meridian (or channel) theory. The Oriental medicine graduates think they have every thing they need in the pockets. When they step out into the real world, they just realize how helpless they are when facing the patients. So, the successful ones just fight their way out by constantly correlate their diagnosis and prescription with the treatment result. When they had accumulated enough hard-earned experience, they began to be respected as an 'Old Chinese Doctor老中醫'. Many Chinese medicine doctors admit the Chinese medicine (Oriental medicine) is a 'black box'.
So, is the western medicine doing any better? The almost beat the body down to death by finding out the secrecy of the operation of the smallest body unit. The western medicine has achieved greatly in combating infection and various acute and/or emergent health conditions. On the other hand, many illnesses which can be easily taken care by Oriental medicine spells disaster with western medicine. The result is numerous unnecessary hysterectomy and surgical operations have been performed.
So, what am I trying to say? Both 'God predestining us' and 'our free will' or the combination of the two are simply not capable of explaining what God is doing. This is exactly like both Oriental medicine and western medicine not having a good control of our body. More (parameters) are missing in our analysis. Before Einstein told us his relativity theory, we had no idea things work drastically differently at the speed of light.
Being a chemical engineer, I actually just made use of a tiny chemical engineering knowledge in the work I do. But, I am more familiar than others with the linear and nonlinear theory because I have been doing the control system analysis and simulation in most part of my engineering career. Our body and/or the universe God had created can be seen as a nonlinear system. The 'God predestining us' and 'our free will' are essentially the linear system of the nonlinear system by way of the linearization. Therefore, they are not only not sufficient to explain the real world or what God is doing, but also are seemingly contradictory at times.
So, like Chun-yen suggested, let us quit pondering on which theory makes more sense and, instead, make sure we have accepted Jesus Christ as our savior and Lord.
note 1: I got a Google + BLOG set up (by my son Kenny) and I plan to put into writing some of my thought concerning how nature works. This is also a good place to share with friends my photography and music interest.
note 2: I kind of got too late for my ping-pong Fri. night, so I did not talk to Professor Virgil Bauman. Perhaps he can grade my writing here.
Some time ago I made a blunt statement about Oriental medicine by saying that all existing Chinese medicine theory just barely explain away the complexity of our body operation. Because not a single set of theory could satisfactorily explain how our body work, one after another set of theory and/or model was cranked out in the Chinese history for use. So, today we have, in the textbook, Yin and Yang, Exterior and Interior, Deficiency and Excess, Cold and Heat (so-called 'Eight Guiding Diagnosis Principles'), Chi, Blood and Fluid theory, Five Element theory, Zhang (Yin organ) and Fu (Yang organ) theory, 3 Jiao (the entire body divided into 3 sections/jiaos, upper, middle and lower) theory and finally the meridian (or channel) theory. The Oriental medicine graduates think they have every thing they need in the pockets. When they step out into the real world, they just realize how helpless they are when facing the patients. So, the successful ones just fight their way out by constantly correlate their diagnosis and prescription with the treatment result. When they had accumulated enough hard-earned experience, they began to be respected as an 'Old Chinese Doctor老中醫'. Many Chinese medicine doctors admit the Chinese medicine (Oriental medicine) is a 'black box'.
So, is the western medicine doing any better? The almost beat the body down to death by finding out the secrecy of the operation of the smallest body unit. The western medicine has achieved greatly in combating infection and various acute and/or emergent health conditions. On the other hand, many illnesses which can be easily taken care by Oriental medicine spells disaster with western medicine. The result is numerous unnecessary hysterectomy and surgical operations have been performed.
So, what am I trying to say? Both 'God predestining us' and 'our free will' or the combination of the two are simply not capable of explaining what God is doing. This is exactly like both Oriental medicine and western medicine not having a good control of our body. More (parameters) are missing in our analysis. Before Einstein told us his relativity theory, we had no idea things work drastically differently at the speed of light.
Being a chemical engineer, I actually just made use of a tiny chemical engineering knowledge in the work I do. But, I am more familiar than others with the linear and nonlinear theory because I have been doing the control system analysis and simulation in most part of my engineering career. Our body and/or the universe God had created can be seen as a nonlinear system. The 'God predestining us' and 'our free will' are essentially the linear system of the nonlinear system by way of the linearization. Therefore, they are not only not sufficient to explain the real world or what God is doing, but also are seemingly contradictory at times.
So, like Chun-yen suggested, let us quit pondering on which theory makes more sense and, instead, make sure we have accepted Jesus Christ as our savior and Lord.
note 1: I got a Google + BLOG set up (by my son Kenny) and I plan to put into writing some of my thought concerning how nature works. This is also a good place to share with friends my photography and music interest.
note 2: I kind of got too late for my ping-pong Fri. night, so I did not talk to Professor Virgil Bauman. Perhaps he can grade my writing here.
Chun-yen
Feb 26
Thank you. It's a delightful piece that you wrote on the medical analogy to our theological reasoning so far. so true! God is above our human logic (as Pastor Fred said), and we can't corner His wisdom into a box or define it by a certain track of thought.
Just wish to note that the interpretation of Exodus 4:21 that I quoted/abstracted in the former email was taken from Chapter 12, segment on "Hardened", of the book "Biblical Psychology" by Oswald Chambers. (We often misunderstand it to mean that God hardened Pharaoh's heart, then condemned him for having a hard heart!! It does not mean that at all. It means that when man's heart turns hard, by God's law, he will be hardened away from God. God did not make it hard. God allowed it to turn hard. God allows man to decide/choose his own destiny by accepting His redemption or rejecting it.)
Oswald Chambers died in 1917 at age 43, yet his intellectual depth and spiritual maturity yielded writings that are rich in inspiration from the Holy Spirit, practical wisdom, actionable truth, and shed light on the real life power behind God's kingdom work - Jesus Christ Himself. Oswald Chambers also was broken bread and poured out wine in the Father's hand.
I appreciated all of the emails on this line of discussion. Somewhere something might have been clarified. If the readers here can forgive my redundancy, i encourage you to take a look into the book "Oswald Chambers -Abandoned to God". Many effective Christian servants were mentioned in the book.
Jesus Christ gave His life for us while we were yet sinners. This love is worthy to be shared. He put an end to the power of sin and death and all its curses. This supernatural power and hope is worthy to be proclaimed.
May we all enjoy His deep friendship!
Luke Hungming Luo
May be you guys are interested in reading some translations I did over the years.
Here is one on this subject:
http://peddrluo.blog.163.com/
http://www.ligonier.org/rym/broadcasts/audio/questions-and-answers2/
Chun-yen
Couple more comments from Pastor Fred Hsu:
http://www.ligonier.org/rym/broadcasts/audio/questions-and-answers2/
Chun-yen
Couple more comments from Pastor Fred Hsu:
"Most of us see rainbows as half circles but actually all
rainbows are full circles--- half of them are hidden to us. What can you do?
Let God be God and man be man.
I think God must be
very happy looking at us, His curious children, and thinking, "I have much
more waiting for you to explore." Enjoy life, enjoy Him, enjoy each other
and enjoy the half circled rainbows."
Love,Fred
Feb. 27, 2013
Liqonier Ministry
http://www.ligonier.org/rym/broadcasts/audio/questions-and-answers2/
I thought our discussion had to come to a halt at least for now. However, I was astonished to heard words 'election' and 'predestination' again on the air (above link) on Wednesday morning when driving to play ping pong at Walnut Gym Center. After listening to the broadcast one more time at home, I indeed understood predestination better.
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